Rockstar Speaks about Limits of the 360

Try to discuss this sensibly. I know this probably wont make very many people happy. I came across this over at Empire so giving credit where it is due.

All points are totally valid and what I had expected to start eventually hearing now that most games are going multi-platform.

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360 is limiting GTA IV, says Rockstar
Wednesday 2-May-2007 2:43 PM Lack of Blu-ray and guaranteed hard drive creating limitations for the next-gen crime opus, acknowledges Rockstar

The Xbox 360's lack of a guaranteed hard disk is creating limitations in Grand Theft Auto IV's development, Rockstar has acknowledged.

During an interview with our partners in crime at Official PlayStation Magazine, Rockstar's creative vice president Dan Houser was asked: "On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format. Does that create limitations?" To which he replied, "Yep."

He continued, "To be honest with you we haven't solved all those riddles yet." The difficulties aren't limited to working on Microsoft's box, as Houser explains that "both have enormous challenges" and that "both have their own particular pleasures and pains".

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I fear this is going to limit the experience that R* is trying to achieve. This makes me think that GTA5 will most likely be exclusive to Playstation like it used to be, and then released on 360 approx. a year after. So maybe now we'll stop seeing the whole BD is'nt needed talk. True it may not be "needed" but they can sure benefit from it.

Try to keep it civil....



~EDIT~
Id like to keep the thread in here if possible....

I wish they would have jsut stayed exclusive or release it later for the xbox to make sure that they use the PS3 as they want and use what it can offer.
PS3 may not have many games at the moment but it will come, developers will see a huge benefit of BD and the extra headroom that you hear from other devs.
GTA will still be good though :Jump:

I obviously prefer the 360 over the PS3, but if making the game multiplatform was going to hinder the game, then they should have left it as a playstation exclusive.

They are just being money hungry, with this multiplatform BS (but then again that's business.......I guess)

yet another reason core owners should die.

I can see it being a limit, but if it needs that space make a hdd mandatory to play, crackdown did it for multiplayer

I can't say rockstar is wrong, but I just am wondering how big and expansive those areas should be to use all that space.

and I don't think the 360 will fail because of a lack of storage (maybe other reasons)

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Zitat von mystery_man

I can see it being a limit, but if it needs that space make a hdd mandatory to play, crackdown did it for multiplayer

I can't say rockstar is wrong, but I just am wondering how big and expansive those areas should be to use all that space.

and I don't think the 360 will fail because of a lack of storage (maybe other reasons)

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I doubt the 360 will fail either, it's just the lack of HDD in every console that puts R* in a tight spot. They may resolve the issues with ease, this was just takin from an interview and they had stated that they were having probs with both consoles. So it will get resolved, it's just how and what they need to compromise to do so.

GTA games tend to be really large in scale... and it seems that the size is increasing... gradually... and eventually, even current BD medias won't be able to store all of the game. Microsoft may have to switch to BD... or HD DVDs later on, when the storage capability of the current DVDs have reached their climax. The 360 will not fail, indeed, but developers may have to reconsider the stuffs they put into their games later on... whereas on the PS3, such problem may not exist for a very long time... However, it'll eventually come to the PS3 as well. I could imagine games that require 2 DL BD discs to be PS3-exclusive now... although they could technically appear on the 360 as well.

The advantage that the PS3 has is that most of it's flaws can be fixed via a software update.

Most of the 360's problems has to be fixed via a hardware update (HDMI Elite for example.)

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Zitat von whitehawk

The advantage that the PS3 has is that most of it's flaws can be fixed via a software update.

Most of the 360's problems has to be fixed via a hardware update (HDMI Elite for example.)

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The statement about the PS3 is true... the statement about the 360 is not so true. Basically, I think that the 360 is built to last through only a year of pre-next-gen gaming... and when titles that are really next-gen in terms of size come out, the console lacks behind immediately. This is nobody's faults, either... it's just that the developers of the 360 hardware couldn't foresee this two years ago... and they were just assuming that next-gen games won't take up more than a DVD or two, dual-layer or not. Well... they were mistaken... and it's a real shame that the 360 is already experiencing this problem so soon. I myself even expected this to come like... 2 or 3 years later... when games are actually that big in scale. Oh well, nothing to complain about now. At least... this is the first time I have ever had to admit that the Blu-Ray drive inside the PS3 is not overkill.

most games wont have this problem, GTA is known to be a huge game for some reason (and im pretty sure its r* being lazy with their compression)

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Zitat von whitehawk

The advantage that the PS3 has is that most of it's flaws can be fixed via a software update.

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Not to start bashing the ps3 but this has to be the stupidest comment I have ever heard. How can a software update fix ps3s crappy game line up(imo ps3s biggest flaw).

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Zitat von whitehawk

Most of the 360's problems has to be fixed via a hardware update (HDMI Elite for example.)

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Not including HDMI in the original 360 wasnt a hardware problem. The 360 didnt support 1080p at launch so where was the need for HDMI? Not to try to defend the 360 or start any agruements I just hate when people speak before they think.

On topic: Why doesnt Rockstar just use the HDD for extra space if they need it? S-E did with FF XI(and crackdown did it as well) I dont see any people without a harddrive saying anything about that.

This thread has a high chance of being dragged off topic and descending into another argument. Your comments and the reply to them are not need in here Siouxsie

all i have to say is...about time ps3 owners are able to get some GOOD news for a change...

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Zitat von the legendary ddm

all i have to say is...about time ps3 owners are able to get some GOOD news for a change...

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This isnt really good news to anyone. The fact that R* may have to hold back on some things due to restraints could mean that PS3 owners wont get the full experience intended.

Patches and updates could probably solve some of these issues that they would need more time for, or they could make the HDD mandatory. But thats where the core 360 owners would get shafted and then have to pay for a HDD.

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Zitat von Sinfulfate

Not to start bashing the ps3 but this has to be the stupidest comment I have ever heard. How can a software update fix ps3s crappy game line up(imo ps3s biggest flaw).

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The crappy games lineup is the developers' problems, not the console. ;) I mean... well, someone could make a really crappy game on the PS3... and then you'll just blame the PS3 for having that crappy game? lol

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Not including HDMI in the original 360 wasnt a hardware problem. The 360 didnt support 1080p at launch so where was the need for HDMI? Not to try to defend the 360 or start any agruements I just hate when people speak before they think.

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That wasn't, indeed. And like I said, I disagree with that statement, too. Calm down, man. :)

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On topic: Why doesnt Rockstar just use the HDD for extra space if they need it? S-E did with FF XI(and crackdown did it as well) I dont see any people without a harddrive saying anything about that.

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Because they wanted to make sure the majority of 360 owners will be able to play the game. I mean... well... there are a lot of 360 owners out there, but how many of them actually have a 360 with an HDD to play this game? And how many would consider updating to an HDD just to play this game and FFXI? If not so many 360 owners are going to play this game (or are able to play this game), it would only be more trouble and less profit for R* to make the 360 version of this game...

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Zitat von RunawayPrisoner

I mean... well... there are a lot of 360 owners out there, but how many of them actually have a 360 with an HDD to play this game?

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Probably a majority, but it still leaves the core owners in the dark until they get an HDD. This may not even be a problem though, it's just something R* needs to deal with and figure out an alternative for.

TBH I think they should just screw the Core owners if they need the HDD. There can't be that many core still without a HDD.

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Zitat von user friendly

Probably a majority, but it still leaves the core owners in the dark until they get an HDD. This may not even be a problem though, it's just something R* needs to deal with and figure out an alternative for.

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Yeah... and R* wants to make sure that they can reach as many as possible to make up for the cost of making this game. However it looks, I think we will have a lot of compression in the 360 version... whereas on the PS3 version, we may see a lot of extras. I mean... San Andreas took up like... 7.4GB on the PC? And they have more than 3 times that size on a single layer BD? I don't think they'll want to let over 15GB worth of storage space go to waste. :p

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Zitat von user friendly

But thats where the core 360 owners would get shafted and then have to pay for a HDD.

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Sucks to be them.

They are ruining it for everyone else.

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Zitat von Duff_McWhalen

Sucks to be them.

They are ruining it for everyone else.

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Haha,

Why an SKU without an HDD is beyond me. Those poor *******s who bought the core, I agree though, if utilizing the HDD is the key then I hope they shaft the core owners.

I don't know one 360 owner that doesn't have the HDD.

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Zitat von Ciaran_

TBH I think they should just screw the Core owners if they need the HDD. There can't be that many core still without a HDD.

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QFT

R* shouldn't be whining, they took the money bags from MS and are getting them also from Sony, STFU and make the game as good as you can, this GTA series has been milked for years and If this one feels like the others but with BETTER GRAPHIX then they have failed IMO, no one wants that.
-= Double Post =-

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Zitat von Sinfulfate

Not to start bashing the ps3 but this has to be the stupidest comment I have ever heard. How can a software update fix ps3s crappy game line up(imo ps3s biggest flaw).

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I guess you didn't get the memo, DEVS GOT GAMES DONE OR CLOSE TO BEING DONE but WILL hold up and keep polishing them, but will delay them UNTIL the Fanbase gets bigger, why release a game on PS3 if it wont give you tons of sales?, by FALL 2007-MID 2008 thats when devs will begin to push out games constantly. By then(June 2008) PS3 could be 10+ million sold

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Zitat von dellis

R* shouldn't be whining, they took the money bags from MS and are getting them also from Sony, STFU and make the game as good as you can, this GTA series has been milked for years and If this one feels like the others but with BETTER GRAPHIX then they have failed IMO, no one wants that.
-= Double Post =-



I guess you didn't get the memo, DEVS GOT GAMES DONE OR CLOSE TO BEING DONE but WILL hold up and keep polishing them, but will delay them UNTIL the Fanbase gets bigger, why release a game on PS3 if it wont give you tons of sales?, by FALL 2007-MID 2008 thats when devs will begin to push out games constantly. By then(June 2008) PS3 could be 10+ million sold

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The only games that developers are holding off are multipaltform games that are already out(on the 360) like Rainbow Six Vegas none of the developers are holding off Ps3 exclusive games. So who cares if developers are holding back games for the PS3 that I can already play on my 360?


I really wonder how many people have 360s without a harddrive.

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Zitat von user friendly

Haha,

Why an SKU without an HDD is beyond me. Those poor *******s who bought the core, I agree though, if utilizing the HDD is the key then I hope they shaft the core owners.

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I 100% agree. Even if I were to buy a 360 without a HDD I would still agree.

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Zitat von psp11

I don't know one 360 owner that doesn't have the HDD.

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And there's the clue: most - if not all - 360 owners DO have a hard drive.
And R* can always just make it for HDD-enabled 360s.
Even Square-Enix has done that with a particular PS2 title. That title also required a broadband adapter as well.
The only ones ing any type of "limits" on the 360 itself would be...Microsoft.
No surprise there, huh? But I do believe that if R* made a good case to Microsoft then they would relax their restrictions on games having to made around the core non-HDD systems.
Microsoft is no dummy and they'll see this as a "win-win" for them since not only will it drive up sales of the 360 but it will also get those few remaining core users (are there any left?!?!?) to buy the HDD add-on....hopefully the new 120GB HDD.
And Microsoft can easily look up how many people have an HDD already just by pulling that data out of Live.

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Zitat von iball®

Even Square-Enix has done that with a particular PS2 title. That title also required a broadband adapter as well.

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Didn't the HDD come with that title though? I dont see R* bundling a 360 HDD with every game. The core owners would still need to purchase a HDD, which could be an issue.

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Zitat von user friendly

Didn't the HDD come with that title though? I dont see R* bundling a 360 HDD with every game. The core owners would still need to purchase a HDD, which could be an issue.

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They sold it with and without the HDD.

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Zitat von iBall

The only ones ing any type of "limits" on the 360 itself would be...Microsoft.
No surprise there, huh? But I do believe that if R* made a good case to Microsoft then they would relax their restrictions on games having to made around the core non-HDD systems.

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Games don't have to be made around the core, its up to devs. There are already a couple of games that require the HDD.

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Zitat von Ciaran_

They sold it with and without the HDD.

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I thought that was maybe the case.

Will they still sell the 20gig? (at a lower price obviously).

1st, why is this in the ps3 section?

2nd the people who have a 360 w/o a hdd are probably seriously around <1%

3rd, r* can use the hdd as a storage method just like past games

4th, what the hell is up with this comment?

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I fear this is going to limit the experience that R* is trying to achieve. This makes me think that GTA5 will most likely be exclusive to Playstation like it used to be, and then released on 360 approx. a year after. So maybe now we'll stop seeing the whole BD is'nt needed talk. True it may not be "needed" but they can sure benefit from it.

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1 360 is easier to dev on, and 2 storage capicity has nothing to do with length of time needed to release on.

5th the ps3 has its own problems too like low video ram

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Zitat von dracule

1st, why is this in the ps3 section?

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Because it's regarding both consoles.

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4th, what the hell is up with this comment?

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Just like it was before Playstation lost the exclusive rights. It used to come out a year later on XBOX. I was just stating that maybe it should be developed for PS3 first and then ported over to 360. I dont want GTA4 to be limited on my PS3 just because they couldnt do what they wanted with the 360. This whole multi platform deving bites. I would seriously wait if R* said they were developing 2 different versions and the PS3 copy would take longer to dev. That would be fine with me. Ports suck.

Storage space doesnt matter at all, its how you use it that counts

Oblivion proved that, the Nintendo DS proved that

I doubt its just the core thats hindering it. Its a combination of both not having an HD & small disk space. Data needs to be compressed alot more on the disk and the HD would help flush some of this out obviously. Thats the thing people don't realize how much compression is done. Especially with sound and such. This will start to affect the 360 whether people will ever admit it or not.

I don't care, I just want to go on a virtual shooting rampage in virtual New York City's virtual Grand Central Station.
I want to virtually drive at 100mph down virtual Broadway, virtually mowing over virtual hookers and virtual tourists.
Now, if they include a virtual copy of NYU's campus...well, that's just a virtual bonus.

(Dear Department of Homeland Security: note the key word "virtual")

Now, that being said I do believe that R* will pretty much release the same game for both "next-gen" consoles.
The 360 is easier to dev on because it's basically like any computer with a few restrictions.
The PS3 is the same thing except it's like developing on a computer while tripping on acid. Up is down, left is right, etc.
That's why most devs have separate teams doing simultaneous builds on both machines. Of course, if one team gets bogged down that delays release for both systems since the most money can be made from a simul-release.

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Zitat von dracule

5th the ps3 has its own problems too like low video ram

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Nope. It's more like... the PS3 RAM is not dynamically distributed, since it's separated... and the system can only use up to 256MB, while the video processor has access to all of it.

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Zitat von Spartan-117

Storage space doesnt matter at all, its how you use it that counts

Oblivion proved that, the Nintendo DS proved that

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They don't matter on the small-scale level... but when you need to put in a lot of stuffs like... 3D objects, movie clips, textures, etc... for a game that is really large, then they will matter. GTA SA on PC used up to 6GB of the HDD for a full installation. And this one is yet another GTA game... with enhanced graphics (drastically), better sounds, and everything else... so if the scale is going to be anywhere as large as SA, expect this game to take up a lot of storage.

P/S: By the way, Oblivion is not as big and detailed as GTA SA, just so you know. It may have better graphics and all that... but it's no where near the scale of GTA SA. And an update for the textures of Oblivion made the game use up to 2GB more storage, too.

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Zitat von Floppydrive

most games wont have this problem, GTA is known to be a huge game for some reason (and im pretty sure its r* being lazy with their compression)

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If Rockstar compresses everything then the load times will take a huge jump. And with GTA being as big as it is, that's a big problem.

Personally, at this hint of news, I'm beginning to rethink me getting a 360. How will the system last if devs are already running into problems? Eventually, games will get over 8 gigs, and then the 360 won't be able to keep up. Sad really.

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Zitat von Adiuvo

If Rockstar compresses everything then the load times will take a huge jump. And with GTA being as big as it is, that's a big problem.

Personally, at this hint of news, I'm beginning to rethink me getting a 360. How will the system last if devs are already running into problems? Eventually, games will get over 8 gigs, and then the 360 won't be able to keep up. Sad really.

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There's that 120GB HDD that's being released and will probably come standard on every new 360 sold in the near future.
That's...umm....double the storage capacity of the PS3 so you might as well apply your statement to the PS3 as well.

Games can't be completely dependent on the hardrive. What if I fill it? And, the PS3 doesn't need the hardrive to function, it just makes load times faster. Perhaps a game will need it eventually, but none do yet.

And with the space thing I was referring to the 360 as only having DVD. If it's a next gen machine why doesn't it use a next gen format?

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Zitat von iball®

There's that 120GB HDD that's being released and will probably come standard on every new 360 sold in the near future.
That's...umm....double the storage capacity of the PS3 so you might as well apply your statement to the PS3 as well.

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doubtful, if it did it'd be on the ELITE sku only, not the old "premium".

As for the ps3 comparison, eh, what does it matter, you can throw any sata 2.5" drive in and use it, none of that completely overpriced console-specific hastle.
$90 for a 20gb hdd? who the fk where they trying to kid?

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Zitat von iball®

There's that 120GB HDD that's being released and will probably come standard on every new 360 sold in the near future.
That's...umm....double the storage capacity of the PS3 so you might as well apply your statement to the PS3 as well.

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And, you completely forgot Microsoft said "All of are games are REQUIRED to NOT use the HDD, since there are people out there with Cores."

And trust me, if they kill off they core (i.e. make the Prem=Core and the Elite=Prem) the base will be 20GB.